SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

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SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by fluffyKittan » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:19 pm

Earlier in the year (bout 2-3 months back) I expressed interest in running this again, and over the past few days have decided to attempt to follow through with this. Don't want to start it immediately as rik still has his team building challenge, looking likely to be over Christmas or if people have revision for exams to do probably half term februaryish.

For those of you who don't know what battle factory is then here is a link to it in the archive, featuring my rather successful Gen 6 season 1 and the flop that was season 2. Long story short for me winter seems to work best (for ben it was the other way around I think).

https://web.archive.org/web/20141018130 ... 3&t=100898

I made this topic because there's a few things i want to discuss focus group style regarding the general format of BF and changes that might or might not work. I'm going to post 2 main points I want to get your opinion on, but feel free to add your own points on format changes that might work.

Mega evolutions

OK so i haven't actually played competitive pokemon for nearly 2 years now. I have no idea how effective any of the new megas are in regular tiers so making a judgement on these is impossible to do by myself.

Here is the tier list of the last BF:

Banned
Blazikenite
Garchompite
Gengarite
Pinsirite
Kangaskhanite
Medichamite
Lucarionite

Upper
Tyrantarite
Heracronite
Scizorite
Gyaradosite
Charizardite-Y
Mawilite


Mid
Blastoisinite
Venasaurite
Charizardite-X
Manectite
Gardivoirite
Amphorosite
Absolite
Bannettite
Alakazite

Lower
Aggronite
Houndoomite
Aerodactlite
Abomasite

This probably needs revising as I assume the capabilities of these pokemon are now fully mapped out unlike before. There's also the matter of shuffling to fit these in:

Beedrill
Pidgeot
Slowbrow
Steelix
Sceptile
Sableye
Camerupt
Altaria
Glalie
Salemence
Metagross
Lopunny
Gallade
Audino

Now what worries me is that:
a) Are we going to have almost as many banned megas as there are in tiers?
b) Are there enough tiers to quantify these mon?

What I want to know is either:
- Am I worrying for nothing, these just need tiering (potentially with another tier addded)
- Is it actually better to ban mega evolutions completely.

Now if we keep megas I'd appreciate some input on where things should go, the pricing of them was always percentage based on your score and their tier (assuming you had played 10 battles).

Scrapping them also seems feasible, firstly for the reasons I mentioned above, secondly because megas while part of gen 6 meta, don't have to be part of battle factory meta, and third and finally it makes it easier to balance. Balancing megas in a BF meta is difficult, yes there are more megas now so the chance of getting one prepped for the shop opening is higher, but the power gap between them is rather noticeable and will probably lead to a large banlist. It also means everyone gears their swaps for megas and has to make the decision whether or not to use them. My main issue with balancing though is that BF has always been balanced on how easily the average team will cope with the pokemon, and I think that's really, reaaly hard to get right with megas.

TL;DR do you think we should have megas? Please let me know with a reason and if you say yes, feel free to voice opinions on the tiers.

Team Generation and Swaps

Right I have two possible changes to this. Firstly I'll start by outlining how i used to generate teams and swaps in the other BFs using wyncorp:

Team
1. Generate 6 random non legendary pokemon
2. If there are any ubers/banned BF pokemon (dragonite) re-gen the team
3. If there are 3 LC pokemon and the other three aren't standout usable fully evolved pokemon re-gen the team
4. If there are 4 or more NFE's, at least ~ 2 of which are utter dog tier (such as cascoon) re-gen the tem
5. If the team was deemed 'too powerful for starting' I.E. very extreme 6 fully evolved most likely all either high offensive threats or strong walls/support along with decent team syngery (N.B. this step is taken with a pinch of salt. It basically never happened over the 4 seasons I ran, maybe once or possibly twice. It's one of those stand out things but I'm not going to penalise people for getting good teams, it's just broken teams.)

Swaps
1. Gen 3 random non legendary pokemon
2. If there are any ubers/banned BF pokemon (e.g.dragonite) re-gen the swap (singular)
3. If there's a duplicate (already in the persons team) re-gen the swap (singular)

The reason why the re-genning is different in swaps and the team is the swap is intended to be random and not necesarily that great. the team on the other hand should aim to be balanced(ish) and I often found that genning 1 singular would hurt a team more than genning 6 new mon.

Now there's two proposed changes to this system that I have.

One is a complete overhaul. There is a team generator on the internet made by pyrotoz that generates pre set teams based on tier (mainly interested in just the mon). Would aim to get our own generator built in java or something so that it doesn't pull pokemon from lower tiers into upper tiers. Here's my suggestion for the new system.

Team

1. Generate 6 NFE, 6 PU and 6 NU pokemon excluding legendaries and ditto (I explain why this is the case later).
2. Pm these three tier pools of 6 pokemon to the participant.
3. The participant makes a team of 6 pokemon using 2 pokemon from each of the three tier pools they have been given, illegal teams will be rejected (clauses, too much fomr one pool etc.)
4. The teams will be posted at the start of round 1. Once the teams have been posted they cannot be changed.

If you fail to get the team to me before round 1 starts it will be entered in round 2 in order to combat counter pickers (in a similar vain to step 4.).

Swaps

The swaps will no longer require a priority system as the database will be tuned to our banlist. I'll outline how it works:
-each swaps you receive 1 random pokemon from each of your highest available tiers.
-everyone starts with the NFE, NU and PU tiers unlocked.
-you unlock RU, UU and OU based on how many battles you have played total (probably 10, 30 and 50)
-RU, UU, and OU have a limit of 2 pokemon from those tiers that can be used in your team, NU and PU have a limit of 4
-limit breakers will be avaiable from the shop for RU, UU and OU, increasing the amount allowed to 4


1. I didn't want the higher tiers to be unlocked by points as people with better teams/better players get massively ahead and activity dwindles.
2. buying limit breaks is a way to balance swaps, keep the lower tiers somewhat relevant and deal with the fact evolution stones form the shop will be mostly reduntant.
3. This system would suit no megas more than having megas, but both could be possible.
4. Things like new swaps/extra swaps will still exist in the shop. Lucky dip may or may not be included.


The other option is the same team generation as the overhaul, but with swaps the same as the previous system, a sort of hybrid compromise if you will (not massively two possible changes but close enough). The advantages this holds over the complete overhaul is it retains the balance starting teams but opts for more BF like swaps in light of the fact the swapping system in the overhaul runs off of smogon tiers which mean little for BF usually. This system would have no tier restriction, would suit megas more (though could still be run without just fine) and would include evolution stones as they would be relevant.


While the overhaul does use smogon tiers and is experimental, it SHOULD keep everyone's teams on some form of level ground while also providing enough variation and relevant shop upgrades. More importantly it rewards activity which is what we want, so it's probably my favorite, though I do really like the second option as well.

I also stand on the side of getting rid of megas.

So that's that, don't think I missed anything, please let me know what you think of these possible changes and if you'd want to tweak something with them if we actually implemented one of them.

~Matt/pwn/FK or whatever

EDIT: Also I should note the purpose of the Megas discussion is to improve balancing, and the purpose of the proposed changes to the team generation and swaps is to improve activity, if anybody is wondering why i;m suggesting these things.
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by JenovaPX » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:39 pm

Sounds like a good overhaul that should really combat the inactivity it did see back on ONM, also goes a long way to rooting out the inherit problem of getting a couple of OU pokémon that basically destroy the early rounds. I'd still prefer the old swaps system but then you do still have that problem of gamebreaking mon being up to chance.
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by Decretum » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:19 pm

My opinion is that it sux I have not read the thread
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by fluffyKittan » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:56 pm

Thinking about it keep the old swap system would probably work better, there are some tiers that pokemon are in simply because of mega evolutions, and ideally i'm wanting to exclude them. Also if the general consensus is keeping megas it's better to have the system that's more adaptable for them.
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by evilpinkdragon » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:50 am

The hybrid overhaul sounds like a good call in terms of balancing, I think an issue was people having eton mess teams/teams that another active player's team shat on, so they'd lose the will to play. Not bothered whether we have megas or not but it'd be interesting to not have them so I'm floating on that side of the fence. If they end up being included though bro and I can probs lend an opinion or two in regards to re-tiering them.
I'd offer to help with the visual side of things but I can't commit to anything because uni is piling on the work gg. I'll see what i can do nearer the time though if needed!
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by fluffyKittan » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:15 am

Last night i actually mused on the fact we've barely had megas anyway, the only way to implement them is through battleshop and only once did we make it that far with gen 6 then the thread died a few days later.
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by fluffyKittan » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:37 pm

Had an idea to implement megas via a swaps method. Basically every so often (once every 3-5 rounds or something) we'll have a mega swaps round, wherein everybody gets a set of 3 pokemon which can mega evolve. In order to make this fair these pokemon would HAVE to be run with their megastone in order to prevent people from getting cheap easy ou sweeps (e.g gyarados which is still really good without it's stone)*. In addition they take up the mega swap slot on the team, so if you want to get a new mega down the line in the next mega swaps, you have to swap your current mega out and not another pokemon (also to stop people from stacking threats).

Will pokemon who can mega evolve still be included in normal swap? I see no reason why they couldn't be. If you get a Charizard in swaps, then get mega zard x in the megas, you have to swap zard out for it as it violates species clause, or you get a different mega. Only the pokemon you get form mega swaps can mega evolve though, and to make that easier to track your team preview and the swaps will be given to you in mega form (so essentially the swap gives you a pokemon with it's megastone glued onto it).

*There may be an exception to this rule. Let's say you have a Gyrados in first swaps and you take it. You then get a mega Houndoom in your first mega swaps and take that. Roll onto second mega swaps and mega gyarados shows up. You can't swap out houndoom for it as you violate species clause, however I would be inclined to allow a stone exchange. By posting "exchanging houndoomite for gyardosite" you are switching your mega to gyarados, and houndoom is now a regular houndoom. I think this is fair based on the fact that the mega swaps what you are essentially swapping is a mega stone, which in most cases is also coupled with a pokemon.

I feel this method coupled with the exception should allow flexible and fair use of megas without the horrible percentile and tier based shop system for megas, which I really didn't like as leaders were discouraged and stragglers were often too far behind for it to make much of a difference as it crippled your points either way.

TL;DR (I know it was a messy post)
-mega swaps every 3-5 rounds
-mega pokemon take up your mega slot (MSlot)
-can only use the pokemon in your MSlot for mega swaps
-for your first mega swap you can:
a) Swap a regular pokemon for a pokemon with a mega stone
b) Swap an item on a potential mega for a mega stone listed in the swaps
-your first mega swap creates your MSlot with the pokemon/stone you just obtained
-for subsequent swaps you can
a) Swap a pokemon and it's mega stone in your MSlot for a new pokemon and mega stone listed in the swaps
b) Exchange a mega stone from the pokemon in your MSlot with a mega stone from the listed swaps, providing you already have the pokemon to match that stone in your team. If you do this then the pokemon that receives the new mega stone now takes up your MSlot while the old mega becomes a regular pokemon (no mega stone allowed)
-You will not have a choice for pokemon with multiple mega evolutions, you MUST use the mega stone depicted by the mega sprite in your swaps

I'm likely to run this system along with the hybrid overhaul in a new battlefactory around XMASish if people think these two methods will work. Might also include a podcast with this version of BF.
Last edited by fluffyKittan on Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by JenovaPX » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:47 pm

I was wondering how Megas would work since the typical store idea would again skew things in favour of people doing well. Sounds like a solid way around it. So would things like Charizard come as Y and X or just as Charizard and you choose which one you want?
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by fluffyKittan » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:02 pm

JenovaPX wrote:I was wondering how Megas would work since the typical store idea would again skew things in favour of people doing well. Sounds like a solid way around it. So would things like Charizard come as Y and X or just as Charizard and you choose which one you want?
They will be fixed (p sure zard is the only one anyway) as it holds true to the general philosophy of BF. I also feel the choice gives you an unfair advantage to tailor the synergy unlike people without the choice.

I'll include this as a clarification; while I stressed that the stones are the main thing you're swapping and the pokemon are attachments I never explicitly outlined this so good catch.

For banned megas I suspect just using the smogon mega bans should be ok unless people disagree.

The store was somewhat ballanced though iirc, as the megas cost a percentage of your points based on tiers, on the premise that you had completed ~10 battles (so it cost more for the leaders and didn't allows newcomers to have them straight away). But re tiering these is going to be a logistical nightmare which is why i'd rather do the swap thing.
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by JenovaPX » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:49 pm

Have you figured out how you're retiering mon classed as OU because of their megas yet?
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by fluffyKittan » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:51 pm

Well we can either decide whtehr or not to tier them in NU or PU for ones such as lopunny, or we can omit them from team generation for sake of ease and include them in swaps. The only other thing tiering matters for is evo stones, which could be done though we have to be careful because exchanging mega stones is a thing.
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by fluffyKittan » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:11 pm

Just posting this url template here as a placeholder so I don't forget it when i make the thread.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/media/sprites ... mega)>.gif
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by fluffyKittan » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:42 pm

Should probably get a thread going within the next few days...
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by fluffyKittan » Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:13 pm

fluffyKittan wrote:Should probably get a thread going within the next few days...
Should have actually got a thread up around the 8th, dropped the ball there, will bump prior to feb half term/easter.
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by Quarg Ranger » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:30 am

I like the changes.

On the activity note, I remember in the Pokémon Online days, everything was way more active, because we sort of had a room to ourselves. We had a place to chat that was the place we battled, and since we were there, we might as well do our battles. Similarly, it was easy to see if people were online, and just to hang around in the room until we got challenged/whatever.

I don't know if there's a way to simulate that with Showdown, but it was a good feeling.
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by fluffyKittan » Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:26 pm

One option is to go back to PO, but showdown is superior as a sim and for PO you need someone to host a server to do that, I think most people were ignorant to the fact the Connor basically left his PC on almost 24/7 just to keep that server up. Even when it's not up full time It's quite an ask of someone to host it, I know Jenova has done it in the past but it's a lot of expectation on that one person to provide battle availability for everyone playing because people want to pick and chose when they play.

The past couple of time's I've had a chatango up specifically for battle factory. Dunno if a facebook group might be better but for some reason people have an aversion to using an IM and showdown at the same time. The players make BF and need to put effort in to use what we're given in order to battle.

If there is a way to ask showdown for a private room and pay for server space that'd be great and I'd be willing to do that. Think we also have an old dota raidcall server (unless richard killed it) which can just be used for text chat/voice comms (I have a vent server but it's for 10 people max).
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by fluffyKittan » Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:34 pm

Also can people advise me as to when half termish is? Might start this mid February as I know half term will be irrelevant to most players as most of us either work or go to uni now but closish to half term (as in 1/2 weeks) might be good for the sprogs. it entirely depends on what your uni workload is like but for now anyway i'm playing diablo as the new season started last friday so not in a position to host anything for like a monthish.
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by JenovaPX » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:45 pm

I would do it again but there's no way I'd be able to leave my computer on all the time and some evenings in the week I'll be away to the point where there's not really much point in me volunteering, if someone else is able to leave their stuff online all the time that's great but that said I have no idea what kind of a state POs in now.
Having our own room on PS would be great, guess speaking to a mod there would be the way forward with that but otherwise yeah, it's just Chatango/facebook and hoping people make use of them.
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by Xenoblade Hero » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:55 pm

Just posting here as I somehow missed the thread when it first appeared

Chatango worked well in the past and I would recommend using that unless you're able to get a Showdown room. I would also recommend people arrange battles through a room that isn't the lobby as it can be hard to find people on occasion
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by fluffyKittan » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:14 pm

You can just search for a player afaik. Chatango is by far the easiest way to sort battles out and you can pm them on showdown/chatango.

And that's fine Jenova I wasn't expecting you to, it was good enough of you to host the one in the 2012/2013 winter.
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by andymck » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:16 pm

Putting 000 in front of our names so we go to the top of the players list in the lobby usually works well.
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by JenovaPX » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:18 pm

Yeah, ctrl+f works on the user list and there's a "search for user" function so it's incredibly easy to find people even on a massive list.
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by fluffyKittan » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:23 pm

I'm fairly certain regarding a private room as well I doubt it will be possible, as all rooms that start off private are intended for public use. They probably get loads of requests for private rooms they can hang out with their mates in.

I don't know if there's a manual room connect function and whether you can use it to connect to an external IRC server or not using the client but I doubt it.
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by Xenoblade Hero » Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:03 am

It was more some users have different names on Showdown. The 000 trick should work
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Re: SONM Battle Factory discussion topic

Post by fluffyKittan » Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:58 am

I'll just stress in the op to use the chatango and the 00 thing/post what your user on showdown is or make sure people know who you are on there when they challenge you on chatango.

We've done 000 before and people just haven't done it because (from what i can assume at least) they don't like being told what to do.
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