Politics General

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General Election 2017

Conservatives
7
13%
Labour
28
52%
Liberal Democrats
10
19%
UKIP
1
2%
SNP
3
6%
Plaid Cymru
0
No votes
Green Party
0
No votes
BNP
0
No votes
English Democrats
1
2%
DUP
0
No votes
Sinn Féin
1
2%
Ulster Unionist Party
0
No votes
Respect Party
0
No votes
Monster Raving Loony Party
0
No votes
The Pirate Party UK
1
2%
Independent
0
No votes
Conservatory Party
0
No votes
Other
1
2%
No One
1
2%
 
Total votes: 54

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Re: Politics General

Post by RichardUK » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:14 am

Shio hime wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:04 am
Also can you link me to a reputable news source on the 4x council tax?

And no papers discredited for lying by wikipedia do not count.
I believe read it on Centre for Policy Studies think tank, they also said that the manifesto was “economically crazy”.
JenovaPX wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:07 am
No, generally they're people who are in employment but aren't earning enough for housing and bills which are pretty expensive on wages that are below the living wage and so are entitled to government benefits to boost their income. At least that's where the vast majority of benefits goes.
I do not honestly believe that if you are a single person living alone or a couple both working full time that you should need state hand outs, not one single member of my family has ever needed or received any type of benefit, I do not understand why you would
Shio hime wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:10 am
You're a moron.

I grew up with people whose parents couldn't afford to feed themselves cause they were working minimum wage jobs living in a house with just enough bedrooms for all of their kids and weren't getting the support they desperately needed from a government that barely acknowledged they exist.
Its sad for the children, but people should really take responsibility for their own lives instead of expecting someone else to bail them out, can't afford to look after so many children? Then don't have them in the first place!!!! It makes me so so so angry seeing people moaning about "its eating or heating" when they have got about six kids, if you cash afford them then people can have as many as the like, but don't masks innocent children suffer because of your poor life choices
Last edited by RichardUK on Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Politics General

Post by JenovaPX » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:15 am

You can not believe it all you like, it's the state of things for a lot of people and it just demonstrates your disconnect from the general public.
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Re: Politics General

Post by Shio hime » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:16 am

RichardUK wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:14 am
I do not honestly believe that if you are a single person living alone or a couple both working full time that you should need state hand outs, not one single member of my family has ever needed or received any type of benefit, I do not understand why you would
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Re: Politics General

Post by RichardUK » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:23 am

Shio hime wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:10 am
You're a moron.

I grew up with people whose parents couldn't afford to feed themselves cause they were working minimum wage jobs living in a house with just enough bedrooms for all of their kids and weren't getting the support they desperately needed from a government that barely acknowledged they exist.
Its sad for the children, but people should really take responsibility for their own lives instead of expecting someone else to bail them out, can't afford to look after so many children? Then don't have them in the first place!!!! It makes me so so so angry seeing people moaning about "its eating or heating" when they have got about six kids, if you cash afford them then people can have as many as the like, but don't masks innocent children suffer because of your poor life choices
JenovaPX wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:15 am
You can not believe it all you like, it's the state of things for a lot of people and it just demonstrates your disconnect from the general public.
I have no disconnect and I am also part of the general public
Shio hime wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:16 am
I refuse to believe you are real.
Why?
Last edited by RichardUK on Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Politics General

Post by JenovaPX » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:29 am

That is objectively a significant disconnect from the situations of most people in the country.
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Re: Politics General

Post by RichardUK » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:38 am

JenovaPX wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:29 am
That is objectively a significant disconnect from the situations of most people in the country.
But it shouldn't be, I don't want "food banks" etc to be a thing, I want everyone to get on in life, people just need to set goals and work toward them, my goal was to travel and own a home in Bavaria, my partner wants a larger historical home, while we have hopes and dreams we will keep working and keep moving forward, it's not easy at times to be keep motivated but we keep at it,
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Re: Politics General

Post by JenovaPX » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:40 am

And it's not that easy, but no amount of basic economics or business understanding seems to help with you facing that.

The only way to actually work towards a system where working without benefits is viable is under the introduction of a living wage a la Labour policy.
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Re: Politics General

Post by RichardUK » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:19 am

JenovaPX wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:40 am
And it's not that easy, but no amount of basic economics or business understanding seems to help with you facing that.

The only way to actually work towards a system where working without benefits is viable is under the introduction of a living wage a la Labour policy.
Business is easy, we set up a eBay account in December selling pet accessories and it's now turning over around £15,000 a month with net being at around 33% which will never make you rich but for the time effort of around 2 hours a days its quite easy, properties buy them cheap and in a state of poor decoration and do them up and sell them on = easy, rental investments just make sure you have insurance in place again easy, I have even sold random things like plants, parrots and rare breed chickens before and again all easy

We have the living wage now introduced by a conservative government, both parties are both looking at around the same increases to around £10 per hour by 2020
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Re: Politics General

Post by JenovaPX » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:32 am

"Business is easy, I sold things on ebay"

That's entirely different to the organisation and running of businesses. I'm not talking about setting up your own business, I'm talking about how businesses operate in terms of hiring, wages and on both national and local scales. The stuff that's relevant to a discussion about wages.

No, we do not have a living wage right now. A living wage is a wage by which you can work full time and be able to afford base things. The current minimum wage does not meet those requirements nationally, hence why even the Conservatives are talking about increasing it, you cannot talk about increasing the current minimum wage to meet the "living wage" and insist that you currently have a "living wage". The Conservatives simply rebranded minimum wage as living wage.

Also no, the Conservatives are not planning on hitting £10 by 2020, they are planning on £8.75 by 2020, which would be the national average for now putting them a solid 3 years behind when it should be that amount. This is also dealing with an average, not accomodating for the living wage in places like the South East and London which is currently at £9.75.
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Re: Politics General

Post by Shio hime » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:35 am

"Just don't live in London then lol, no one is forcing you lol"
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Re: Politics General

Post by Met » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:05 am

It baffles me that some people still get a vote tbh.
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Re: Politics General

Post by Tsunade » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:45 am

I grew up with a single mother who struggled hard to bring up me and my brother with a minimum wage job. She had me and my brother whilst in a relationship that she thought was secure. "Don't have so many children!" Richard, some people who have had children have been in your position and then had everything crash around them leaving them to struggle. It's hard to get out of that position.

People are on benefits for a reason. The disabled need it to get by, people need it in between jobs to feed their families, and whilst there are a few who abuse the system, they're a minority to those who actually need the benefits to live. The media normally focuses on the scroungers to make people like you believe that people claiming benefits are all like that. I assure you they aren't. They need the help.

You're lucky you've grown up with a family who haven't needed benefits. But you seem to forget people aren't as blessed as yourself. Not everyone has been born with a silver spoon in their mouths like you.

You're moaning about taxes, that you could easily pay, it'd probably hardly leave a dent in what you make. I'm pretty sure other people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it lead to a higher quality of life for them and those others around them. A lot of people would rather have a better quality of life around then than just for themselves.

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Re: Politics General

Post by fluffyKittan » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:55 am

The bottom line is corporations and the better off paying more tax doesn't mean their income is being crippled. They will still make a tidy profit. You can't expect an economy to do well if you don't invest into it's infrastructure and put money back into it. The rich have managed to benefit from our economy investing in their business therefore they should be expected to invest in the same economy that allowed their success, because that's how we grew as a country in the first place.

But no. People develop their 'personal political opinions' which are just echoes and repeated beatings from the tory rags. People become privileged, entitled and narrow minded and take too much money out of the pot for themselves (bankers with 100% bonus pay f uckign good one) and state 'I worked hard for this money it's all mine'. No you f ucking didn't. You worked no harder than a kid in china does who gets up at 6 to go make t shirts in a factory. You were born in a first world country and were spoon fed the benefits of a strong global economy that was built by your ancestors who understood the value of putting wealth back into the system, and now you want to s hit on all of that and the very reason you're able to have a comfortable life.

Poverty in the country is a reality because some people don't get that privileged life, and policies like austerity completely cripple and squeeze them until there's nothing left and are forced to use hand outs. When the government imposes spending cuts, freezes the minimum wage despite rising inflation (something which austerity was supposed to reduce) and continue to dismantle the nhs while lowering corporation tax and using tax money to subsidise bankers without regulation, nothing beneficial happens for the people struggling. Nothing. The corporations pocket the money they save from tax cuts rather than re-investing it and the bankers take the absolute piss and do the same because no one is stopping or regulating them. What's the deal with that? it's ok to bail out the locusts chewing the wealth away but not the little man who struggles and toils and forms the back bone of the country's workforce?

The Tory economic policies of the last 7 years have been a f ucking joke. Even Cameron knew they f ucked up, why do you think they promised a referendum that shafted us (oh yeah everyone forgets that brexit is essentially the Tory's fault). And before you come in and bash labour's policies, they have been costed, they have been calculated and they've even included around 10% headroom in them in case of potential underestimation and the unkown of brexit. Raising taxes won't push people away. Germany currently has one of the highest corporation taxes in europe and it's the strongest economy.

This is by and large aimed at you Richard (and any other tory lurkers who just don't frequent the forum). There's only two largely vocal Tory users on here and that's you and Chris, and while Chris has been brianwashed with spoon fed privileged opinions in between private education and croquet what he doesn't do is come on here with absurd, small minded remarks at people with absolutely no evidence and slams them for complaining about something that isn't their fault. It's such a small minded outlook that it;s hard for other people to comprehend, which is why they say things like 'You aren't real' because no self respecting decent human being would say things like that.

Am I calling you a horrible person? Well we can judge moral scales of good/bad lawful/chaotic as selfish/unselfish principled/unprincipled so yes, by extension I guess I am. Your lack of compassion for other humans not of your social standing and inability to see other people's point of view makes you a horrible person. For the most point I find you ridiculous remarks about buying 5 puppies good for a bit of a giggle, but then it get's to the point that you're just saying stuff that's not on to other people and you just don't seem to get that. I don't think you ever will, not even with the free uni education labour could offer you. So I think it's probably best you leave and don't come back and honestly I don't think anyone would complain if you did.
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Re: Politics General

Post by Aren142 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:18 am

RichardUK wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:26 am
Aren142 wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:14 am

I feel like you're implying I chose to be disabled and have poor mental health. And that people choose to work on zero hours contracts that give them no guaranteed work or wages that can sustain any kind of lifestyle.

I also like the suggestion that people born in the poorest parts of Africa could lead the same life as you just through working hard.
I did not say anything about disabled people or people with mental health problems,
You said we're all born the same and that choices we make are what make a difference. It is a very simple fact that we are not born the same. Some people are born into comfortable middle class families, some people are born as members of the Royal family, some people are born to abusive parents, some people are born with crippling disabilities. These 4 examples are not equal. They do not have the same opportunities. The choices that they have to make will be different and will not yield the same results.

You are out of touch.
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Re: Politics General

Post by Shio hime » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:36 am

Aren142 wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:18 am
You are out of touch.
He's not real.
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Re: Politics General

Post by Quarg Ranger » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:28 pm

What gall these children have, the audacity to be born into lower income backgrounds. They should be punished for their insolence, how dare they live beyond their means. If they were the right sort, they'd have been born into wealthy families, they weren't, and so they deserve to starve, they're obviously not worthy of living.

Unemployment is at its lowest rate. I mean, sure, poverty is up, but they're all employed, so what's the problem? Employment is the /only/ thing that matters.

If they worked harder, they'd have enough money to survive on. I mean, sure, they're working 2 jobs and 80 hours a week as it is, but there are 168 hours in a week, that's at least half of those hours they're not working. Lazy. Obviously work pays, otherwise I wouldn't be earning any money, nobody's situation can possibly be different from mine. I've got enough money to live on, why do these selfish people not work hard like me? God, they must be so stupid to see that if they don't work hard, they won't get anywhere in this life.

They can't afford a house? What are they wasting all their money on? You know, if you were just smart like me and saved up the money, you'd be able to afford a house. Gosh, I can't believe all these idiots who don't know how to save. They should stop smoking all those cigarettes and drinking all that alcohol, I bet that's where all their money is going. They've got the same opportunities as me, so they must be earning the same money as me if they work as hard, and so if they deserve it, then they'll have what I have. I've not had any help, have I?

What do you mean I've been lucky? IT'S ALL BEEN MY HARD WORK, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!?!?! How dare you suggest that the reason that my working hard pays off is because I'm in a situation where working hard will pay off for me? How /dare/ you suggest that it wasn't all because of me? Stop being jealous of my success. I worked hard to get here, obviously harder than you, because you're not where I am. Circumstance has nothing to do with it. It was all me. Get off your lazy backside and work, and don't tell me that you are already working hard, because you're clearly not, because you don't have what I have.

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It's hard to question yourself when you've deluded yourself into thinking that all you have is down to your personal drive. That would make you realise that your success is at least partially down to external factors out of your control, and it makes you feel like you don't deserve what you have as much. Which is hard to take. You go from having earned everything you have, to being lucky to have anything. The belief that you're somehow better than others because of your hard work, when really the majority of people doing worse than you work just as hard.

The truth is, it doesn't take anything away from you to acknowledge that we are all affected by our personal circumstances. But in that acknowledgement, you find that it's an unfair system. It is my belief that when we're faced with an unfair system, we should have a moral obligation to try as hard as we can to rectify that unfairness. By acknowledging that the system has favoured you, has allowed you to succeed where others haven't due to personal circumstances in spite of the same work ethic and ability, you can't help but feel compelled to help fix things. Making a small contribution that doesn't harm you, and is probably less than the effect of the system on your success, in order to make a large difference to people who haven't had the same fortune as you, seems like a more than reasonable ask.

Even if you decide that you want to ignore that urge to redress the balance, the numbers alone make sense. If everyone only looks out for themselves, that's only one person looking out for your wellbeing. If everyone looks out for everyone else, that's 60,000,000 people in the UK alone looking out for your wellbeing. If something goes wrong, you get ill, or your accountant is committing tax fraud, or your partner kicks you out of your house because you've been having an affair, or whatever, it means that you're not left alone on the street, because everyone is helping you. The numbers make sense.

I really hope, Richard, that you understand the injustice inherent in this system one day. Because, to be quite frank with you, without noticing this, you will never understand the situation of the majority of people. You'll never feel compassion or empathy for victims of circumstance, and you will miss out on the connection between people against a world that is actually pretty difficult to live in. As a social species, the shared struggle against injustice is one of the greatest driving forces in humanity, and you're missing out on something that is fundamental to being human by blinkering yourself to it. People won't understand you, and you won't understand them. And that's just how it will be until you realise what the world is really like.
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Re: Politics General

Post by OrangeRakoon » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:35 pm

Can't we all just agree that both the Conservatives and Labour are pretty bad choices

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Re: Politics General

Post by fluffyKittan » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:37 pm

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Re: Politics General

Post by Cruizer » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:15 pm

This is nice to see this thread so active and it's nice to see oposing views and I do think it takes courage to express a view knowing it may make you unpopular. It's good to see so much passion - debates often have a habit of devolving into "who can be the most logical and rational" competitions and I think rationale only goes so far in debates, logic and the use of "facts" is more of a tool or last resort for people that aren't particularly invested in their own argument, as someone that believes a feeling is of as much value as an objective truth I'd personally much read something that is factually wrong but emotional honest and passionate.

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Quarg wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:35 pm
Redress the balance
That reminds of the reason I opened this thread in the first place.

This is probably the best place to post this as current affairs is sort of politics. Whatever happened with that dress that looked either gold or blue depending on your eyes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 74490.html

For a little while, it seemed to be a bit of hot-topic on the internet and like it was going to be big - but I haven't heard anything about it for years.
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Re: Politics General

Post by OrangeRakoon » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:41 pm

jimbob555 wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 10:55 am
if you know hes a troll just ban him
I'm struggling to see why not to listen to this advice

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Re: Politics General

Post by LostNoob » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:10 pm

I'm not a fan of Corbyn, honestly, I think that he's a bit eton mess, I think I've probably gone on quite enough about why I think electing him as leader was a bad idea.

But compared to May, he looks like a bloody political heavyweight.
Compare the two campaigns, and tell me you think Theresa May is the credible candidate for PM.
The Tory election campaign has been shambolic, with plenty of gaffs, U-turns and scandals, with May coming off as anything but strong and stable, backing out of interviews, hiding away from the general public, only allowing Tory activists to attend Mays public meetings.
The Tory manifesto has been widely slated, even by Tory supporters, it's a dangerous, un-costed mess of a manifesto.
Even Tory MP's have called this the worst Tory election campaign in history, with May's future in doubt, even if the Tories win this week.

In contrast, Labour's election campaign has gone off, mostly, without a hitch.
Corbyn is a much more confident public speaker than May, and has actually put himself out their, talking to the members of the public, making his views known, and whoever had the idea to "leak" the manifesto was a genius, that manifesto effectively got two launches, getting twice the coverage, and that worked, Labour's bounce in the polls happened around that time, and the campaign has only continued to gain momentum.
It wouldn't be too surprising if Labour actually made some serious gains tomorrow night, it has been a far better election campaign than the pretty dull 2015 one.

Still, I can't help but feel that, if it wasn't for Corbyn, Labour would be winning this election right now, and if it wasn't for May, the Tories would still be heading for a landslide.

Still, fingers crossed, a Labour win isn't out of the question.

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Re: Politics General

Post by Garf » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:03 pm

Come on Independent, win it for dirtford

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Re: Politics General

Post by Majin_Nephets » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:27 pm

I'd just like to say that I fail to see how being "a bloody difficult woman" will help the Brexit negotiations.

I already know which way I'm voting tomorrow and no amount of hysterical, scaremongering headlines will change my mind. Seriously, I know I shouldn't be surprised but gooseberry fool's sake...
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Re: Politics General

Post by Kappa » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:09 pm

you are all filthy communists and i can't wait until theresa may has you all hanged

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Re: Politics General

Post by Shio hime » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:20 pm

TAXATION IS THEFT gooseberry fool THE POOR AND THE DISABLED THEY DESERVE TO STARVE BECAUSE IF I EARN A GOOD SALARY THEN THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO AS WELL IT'S NOT LIKE IT'S VERY HARD ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS BE WELL QUALIFIED AND HAVE DECENT ENOUGH PEOPLE SKILLS TO GET THROUGH INTERVIEW

JESUS IT'S LIKE THESE PEOPLE DON'T EVEN TRY
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